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The Circle of Fifths

Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:12 pm
by Kennethpauls
In my quest to be a better Zitherspieler I'm taking a few music theory classes at the local college. During office hours the professor was trying to figure out the instrument- coverting the open strings to his keyboard a few feet away, and noticing the pattern: 2 descending fourths then up a fifth, then 3 descending again etc. He doesnt know of any other instrument that has this pattern within the circle of fifths. And I'm wondering too.Does anyone know the reasoning for it? And why the strings begin with Eb and end with G#, which seems rather random as well.
And my second question would be- I took this photo from the old A Daar music book. Notice that the open strings start with Ab instead of Eb. I dont think I've seen any zithers with that extra string, have you?

Re: The Circle of Fifths

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:31 am
by Rudy Mueller
The old "6 string griffbrett" zither I keep in Germany had the first accompaniment peg empty when I got it, then started with Eb Bb, etc. The strings have since been moved one peg toward the griffbrett. This is an old instrument; pegs, not a machine, for the griffbrett.

The sixth griff peg is, incidentally, now kept open.

Is some Viennese/Austrian folk/tavern music in Ab?

rudi

Re: The Circle of Fifths

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:32 am
by Rudy Mueller
Does Ab = G# ?

Re: The Circle of Fifths

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:35 am
by NutmegCT
Servus Rudi.

Ab is the common way of writing "a flat", which (on equal tempered instruments) is the same sound as "g sharp".

If you read this article about Weigel, you see how he tried to standardize zither tunings back in the second half of the nineteenth century.

http://www.zither.us/nikolaus.weigel.hu ... nniversary

Also, a translation of Stang's comments on Darr in this article:

https://www.zither.us/adam.darr.thoughts

Note translator Jane Curtis's footnote regarding the "a flat" vs. "e flat" issue toward the bottom of this article:

" The accompaniment strings of most zithers today begin with ab [Translater's note: This is no longer true today.],"

Interesting that in Darr's "New and Complete Instruction Book for the Zither", Darr himself describes the "old zither" as having only 17 to 20 strings - and other sources on the Zither.us pages indicate the griffbrett C string was introduced during Darr's lifetime.

Tom M.

Re: The Circle of Fifths

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:03 am
by Kennethpauls
Yes interesting, but none of you have answered the question: Why the strings descend Eb to Bb, then ascend at F, then descend C to G, then acend at D, etc.

Re: The Circle of Fifths

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:21 am
by NutmegCT
Answer this question - "What is the meaning of life?"

OK, back to SOP. From those Zither.us articles, it sure sounds like the stringing used today was worked out over at least a century, from the "17 string old zither" of around 1800 to the ones used today. Weigel apparently was responsible for the string arrangement standardization, so we'd need to know what he was thinking. And unfortunately he was almost a recluse who left very little written material.

If you're just asking about the "ascend/descend" issue, I'd think that also comes from years of tradition, experimentation, and experience, wire gauge and tension, and of course Weigel to pull it together.

My untrained eye sees a similarity between zither accompaniment strings, and accordion chord buttons, which also follow the "circle of fifths".

Image

Tom M.

Re: The Circle of Fifths

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:13 pm
by kenbloom
The circle of fifths is one of those basic building blocks of Western music. For those of us who improvise over a chord progression it gives you reasonable predictability of what the next chord os going to be. I broke a lot of strings when I first started trying to tune that first accompaniement string to Ab. I think it was dropped because it's not really very practical to have the circle begin there. Having Eb be the first one puts the G, D, C and A in a more comfortable placement on the instrument. The octave flipping makes it all work out just fine. If you start playing a lot of scales on the bass and accompaniment strings, you will soon see the patterns emerge and it all makes sense. The Hintermeyer books help with that. I worked a lot of it out on my own. Having the strings in the Circle of fifths means that the three chords you need for most light music are all adjacent. It's the same arrangement that you find on the accordion and there autoharp, all invented by Germans and came about at the same time as the zither did. If this doesan't answer the various questions still out there, let me know and I'll try and do better.

Ken Bloom
http://www.boweddulcmer.org

Re: The Circle of Fifths

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:38 am
by Wilhelm
Well Folks.....
New here on this site and I live in Sweden and my english is not soo good, sorry for that,
But let me explain the fitht order.

For example, you grep a C-dur, C-sharp in english, achord with your rigth hand. You pluck the g string with you right index finger BUT, and this is one of the difficulties also pluck the c string with the same index finger. This are two stings, for a three-??triad? ackord. Yyou need the string e Pluck the e string with your right "long"/middle? finger (sorry my english).
This way you have a three tone ackord.
Now if you want the subdominant ackord from c-sharp just move the fingers 1 string clozer to the griffbrett.You got the F-sharp ackord. The opposit to get the dominant ackord, the G-sharp, mowe away from the griffbrett.
The parallell to c-shar is a-flat.
Now the next difficulti for beginners, now you pluck the c not the g string with you indexfinger and pluck the two e and the a string with your longfinger. Two strings on same finger very fast after each other.

Your righthand ring finger plucks the bass string C.
This way you can play the" um-pa-pa" in waltezer or ländler 3/4 meter
Or just "um-pa--um-pa in two stroke/meter.

In middle, Iḿ im not sure now the year, the later famous man Richard Grünwald was tired of all those zithers every where with different tune and the free-strings different placementss. So he acted and said the Zither must be able to play in every key together with every instruments so he resolutely placed all the srtings in those "kvints" as a result. He found also it be more usefull have the double a and not the double g string, little different from the common Vienna griffbrett.

Wow, but many people missed tha bass F and a few other free-strings from the Vienna playings so he put among others two f strings, one a little deeper under the other, so you can choose wich one to pluck. He called it the Reform Zither. later he also wrote a scoolbog called Meine methode.
Later on this second version with two F string disapiared. On my Zither I do have Münchener on the griffbrett and have a deaper F on the chord strings. A personal little mixer.

Well, I hope this wil explain/declaire some things. I'll also give an answer, my oppinion about this wunderfull and beast and heavenly and devil an beautifull harmonic but unplayeble instrument of ours insterest, this lovely and devil instrument.
She is a demanding but rich rewarding Queen for those who subservience and bow to her pretensions and makes his lessons and practies days out. This maybe the one big thing many people fell of, giving up practiceing.
(Sorry for th eenglish spelling)
Thank You.

Re: The Circle of Fifths

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:59 am
by Evelyn
Hi Wilhelm

May I ask which type of zither music you are playing - traditional alpine Volksmusik, classical, modern or ...? Do you prefer the Munich School (or method), the Wiener School, or R Grünwald's? How long have you been playing? Did I read somewhere that you have or had a teacher? Ah, yes, just found it in another thread: Alois Öllinger from Austria, you wrote. How long have you been learning/playing?

Apologies for the many questions!

There can't be very many zither players in Sweden. I was born and grew up in Bavaria where there are many, but have since moved to the UK where there are hardly any I know of.

Re: The Circle of Fifths

Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 12:21 pm
by Wilhelm
Hi...
Posted a long answer but it dissapeared now.
Write later.